Raising Kids

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

Although our child is only three months, DW and I have had similar concerns. How do we want to raise our daughter in terms of religion?

So far, I am willing to concede to DW’s wishes that we raise DD in the church. While I don’t agree with much of what the church claims and advocates, we’ve decided that the church can still provide a safe, moral environment–at least one that my wife is comfortable with–wherein we can raise our child(ren?). But we do not intend to let the church be our daughter’s sole source of moral or rational upbringing. We will teach her to think independently and to act confidently according to the conclusions she has made. This sounds simple, but I suspect that it will be a little more difficult, especially if we are competing with the so-called teachings of the church. Also, we would like to avoid confusing her during her early childhood years. From the little we’ve read about a child’s development of cognitive skills, we don’t think it would be wise to present her with information that might conflict too sharply with her simple and innocent world view, at least not until she’s a teenager–and even then she might be too young. But we will definitely find ways to supplement with our own views what she has learned in church, hopefully without confusing her too much.

These are our plans thus far. Unfortunately, we have no experience in this area, beyond just three months of parenthood.

How have other parents approached this subject? How have you raised your children with regards to religion and the LDS church? Or how would you raise your children if you could do so again?

Much thanks for any feedback.

James

---

I’m petitioning my fellow NOMs on the subject of raising kids.  I’m wondering how everyone else approaches their beliefs with their kids?

---

I think I have passed through much of the “anger-disillusioned-numb-anger-disillusioned-numb” phase now.  Its been 6 months or so, that I noticed JS inked-in the wrong head on the Anubis.  I think I’m entering a new phase, the “found help – don’t know who I am” phase.  Or maybe I should call it the “am I a believer or disbeliever ?” phase.  Since I’m a NOM now, I have a insatiable desire for more info about lds history, from the historians, not the tainted sources.

I’m kind of floating on auto-pilot as far as the kids.  DW knows I’m a NOM, she’s ok with it, in my new search for “the truth”. My kids don’t know.  I’m messed up enough myself right now.   I can’t see being totally open with my new-found disillusionment only to create teenage zombies around here.  My kids are totally entrenched in the social aspects of the Borg with an M (oops  ). My DW just signed my daughter up for EFY, made sure she was rooming with her best bosom buddies, etc etc.  Like I can really rain on their parade… here’s me  “like hey, you know what, I found out that JS was doin’ the hokey-pokey his maid Fanny Alger, and 32 others”.   I don’t even know if I’d get taken seriously.   I’d probably get an eye-roll with a “so-what” attached.  Then beat-up later by DW.   I don’t need that right now.

For now I’ll stay on auto-pilot, its safe.  I definitely have plans to discuss many “taboo” lds topics with the chillens.  I just don’t know how or when right now, but I have time to come up with a plan.  Maybe you folks with help me with that.

DV

---

From the little we’ve read about a child’s development of cognitive skills, we don’t think it would be wise to present her with information that might conflict too sharply with her simple and innocent world view, at least not until she’s a teenager–and even then she might be too young. But we will definitely find ways to supplement with our own views what she has learned in church, hopefully without confusing her too much.

---

hey james buddy.

when you walk outside tomorrow, and you see a large rock, imagine how much that rock knows about parenting and children and you may begin to understand how i feel. i am that rock. but i am going to take a chance and jump in here, against my better judgment. first, my kids are all young. none are baptised. so i know even less than a rock about bigger kids.

in my opinion, there isnt a quality standard for information you can share with kids other than *true or untrue.* if the truth is too much for a kid, then the topic may be avoided, but there is rarely a place for white lies or whitewashed versions of important things. one of the hardest sundays i had was when i was in the nursery and realized that some of the lesson material was too much for the kids. i cant remember if it was the flood or the creation story, but something jarred me when i realized that the presentation to them was factual, and to me it was mythical.

my oldest kid is extremely compliant. she believed everything she learned or was told in primary. everything. it was literal. i listened to her explain to her younger brother that its ok if she never gets the priesthood because god wants things to be different for boys and girls. she hasnt been to church since she was six, and she damn sure never learned that from hotmomama. but she picked it up, and she believes it. i dont intend to raise her to be compliant to things that i think are harmful, and i dont think it would be easy to undue things she absorbed in the formative years of her life.

my son had a differnt experience. he thinks church is a place where people say “no”. thats the majority of his memory of any given sunday. dont do this, dont do that, dont tell a lie, dont drink coffee. its all great advice for a kid, but the presentation was such, and the material, that all he heard was “NO.” i dont blame anyone for that, he just percieved the experience very differently.

i only mention my kids experiences to show that they can be very different for kids in the same family and the same ward with the same teachers. you have to consider your children. there are others on this board with children that have had greater challenges at the primary age than us. hopefully they will also contribute.

i left home when i was 17 and moved to another country. since the middle of my senior year of high school, i havent lived with my parents except for a few months before my mission. your daughter may choose to spread her wings and go off into the brave world at a young age. my mom cried for much of a year as her kids left to see other places. that could be you too. you dont know when they will do that. if you wait til the perfect time to start filling them in on the details – someone will have done it for you, and you will have egg on your face. or, they will be gone, and you will have the whole omelette to clean up.

for all i know, i am making mistakes with my kids. but just as i consider that if i do stand before a god one day, i may need to explain that i have been wrong, i may be a fool, but for petesakes i was doing what was logical and what seemed honest. i hope my superduper kids can point out all my awful mistakes and i can say the same to them, that i thought it was logical and honest (plus, nanna p never stopped me from going down this path)

so james. hold that kid tight. speak to her in the same voice you speak to everyone else, like a person that is absorbing all you have to share, and tell the truth. thats all she is asking for. she wants to laugh with you when she is older, and not have to spend her time retracing her steps.

so to answer your question, we tried it the traditional mormon way. it didnt work out. so we took our kids and went on a bike ride. we havent looked back.

my opinion. thats all.

s

————————-
Keep this topic on JS”s wives and children. If sex is brought up again in any form the thread will be closed. It is tasteless and unnecessary. -Dunamis, 12/27/2005

Message edited by: Mayan Elephant on 01/19/2006 00:31:42[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]

Which, I think, alludes to a great advantage our kids have over us in the mythos/logos department. They are quite used to seeing things that look and sound very real, but which aren’t (movies, video games, etc.). My son, at least, seems to be quite comfortable with these blurry lines. Middle-Earth, in his brain, is in a sense just as real as China–because he has seen them the same way: on TV, and each looked very real to him.

I have been quietly using this with my oldest, explaining to him that there are different kinds of truth. He just finished the Narnia series. I asked him if it was true, and he, correctly, said no. I then asked if there was truth in it. After some discussion, he acknowledged that, yes, there was indeed. I explained that often, stories are presented as “literally” true in order to convey “truth”–that’s what CS Lewis did. Sometimes we do that in Church, too. I asked him about the parable of the Good Samaritan. Was it true? He wasn’t sure. I told him that it was a story Jesus told, and was probably not literally true. But the story teaches a lot of truth.

Of course, I don’t personally think that most LDS mythology contains a lot of meaningful truth (where is the meaningful truth in the First Vision myth? There are exceptions–the LDS doctrine of agency, properly taught in the creation story, can be very meaningful), but I hope that this will help prepare his mind to judge what he is taught in Primary with a little more flexibility.

I hope.

————————-
Better to shoot for the stars and miss than to shoot for a cow pie and hit it.

---

so james. hold that kid tight. speak to her in the same voice you speak to everyone else, like a person that is absorbing all you have to share, and tell the truth. thats all she is asking for. she wants to laugh with you when she is older, and not have to spend her time retracing her steps.

---

Thanks ME. I liked the comments, especially the above one. You’ve given us some things to consider–such as whether fatherly supplements to her church exposure would even be a viable approach.

---

A very poignant topic for me.My oldest is very malleable, which may be good or bad. His imagination is so active, and the line between myth and truth are always blurry for him. He easily accepts Church dogma as true, so that’s the down side. The up side, though, is that he just as easily sees “Lord of the Rings” as true.Which, I think,alludes to a great advantage our kids have over us in the mythos/logos department. They are quite used to seeing things that look and sound very real, but which aren’t (movies, video games, etc.). My son, at least, seems to be quite comfortable with these blurry lines. Middle-Earth, in his brain, is in a sensejust as real as China–because he has seen them the same way: on TV, andeach looked very real to him.I have been quietly using this with my oldest, explaining to him that there are different k

---

You’ve given me some hope that I might be able to tackle this issue with my child(ren) someday. Yes, I foresee some difficulty as I eventually try to teach my child(ren) that life and experience are not necessarily true or false only. Hinckley’s statement that the church is either true, or it is a fraud, is a false dichotomy (“Loyalty,” Ensign, May 2003, 58).  But a young child might not understand this at first; the child or teenager might just jump to the conclusion that the church is all bad, or that all morality is an inconvenient system of control. I’m worried that my daughter will ask me, why I never bear my testimony in church, why I never have a calling, why I never go to the temple, etc., and that my answer to these questions will incorrigibly corrupt her very delicate world view. While I do not find that the LDS church is all bad, I am very concerned about some of the issues that ME mentioned above (oppression of women, myths perpetuated as fact, etc.).

So Morzeez, perhaps I’ll have to try your approach and try explaining to my children gradually as they get older why I believe the way that I do, why and how the church can offer something of moral value and yet simultaneously advance a problematic history and doctrine. True, I might miss my opportunity, or I might confuse my poor daughter into thinking that I’m a crazy old man, but I’ll have to give it a try. For the time being, my wife and I have chosen to stay in the church, in spite of its flaws.

Any more ideas, thoughts?

Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

James

On the other hand attendance has its pitfalls and these can be equally risky and this is because to a large degree one hands over one’s children to the TBM community on Sundays, at mutual and EFY etc, etc.  I think the organism of the church will try very hard to engendar in oneschildren a loyalty to the organisation that is stronger than what they have for their NOM parent and they may see one’s nomish behaviour as a sign of weakness, or sin, or rebellion, which if that were the case would significantly reduce ones influence on them.

For various reasons I have chosen to not really discuss my new found situation with my children yet, but already I can see (especially with the three teenagers) that firstly they are embarrased amongst their peers by my slight inactivity (their status has been eroded slightly by this) and secondly they are slightly disapointed in me by what they perceive to be my rebellious behaviour.

My feeling at the moment is that as soon as my DW stops being TBM or accepts my NOMness then that would be a good time to start being more open with my children about what I have found about the church and why I have changed.  The risks are enormous but how can I look back on 25 wasted years of church membership without desiring to at least help my children to not make the same mistake?

————————-
I always avoid prophesying beforehand, because it is a much better policy to prophesy after the event has already taken place. Winston Churchill

My two youngest will surely be baptized at 8 (in fact we get to go to “Eight is Great” baptism pep rally on Sunday), but I have already noticed that they tell us stuff they learn in church and then kind of pause for a second to get our validation.  When this happens, i try really hard not to be nasty or mean, but this is how it went sunday:

5YOD- “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus in the grove.

Me-“Joseph did say that.”

Hubby-“Yes he did see HF and Jesus”

Me-“He sure said he did.”

So that ‘s where we are.  I work very hard to guide my children to moral lives.  My oldest asks great questions, but we live in Utah and in a ward with lots o’ family and long time friends and the social aspects really get to her.  She seems to understand useful mythology, but when she hears her closest cousin say, “XXXXX isn’t mormon any more, so I don’t play with her”, that’s rubber to road and she’s an adolescent.  It’s going to be an interesting road.

My family knows of my church status as a questioning, but practicing liberal member.  My current “goals,” right or wrong, are to give my kids the tools they need and the support they need to make their own decisions, and to be a thinking, questing, questioning, person.  My kids will have the support of both my liberal-TBM wife and me if they choose alternate paths in life.  I want to teach my kids to think for themselves, understand literal vs. mythical interpretations, question authority, evaluate other commandments and decisions based upon the Golden Rule, well, and a few other things, but these are foundational.  Here are some things which I have done, which may show my ignorance or perhaps be helpful, I’m not sure which.

1.  In speaking with my kids about some of the NT stories, I ask them about parables and what they mean.  I compare parables to some of the OT stories.  I tell them that there are many stories we don’t know if they are literally true or not, but they may help to teach important lessons.  I then move the the BoM and say the same thing.  I then move to the D&C and say the same thing.  I attempt to reinforce the idea that as with parables, many see those stories as literal, while others may understand the same stories as symbolic or mythical.  I even go so far to say that many of the things we hear in GC may fit very much in the same space of trying to teach lessons with stories.  I tell them about Paul Dunn’s embellishing.

2.  I taped a one hour special on the Mountain Meadow Massacre that showed up on the History Channel.  I sat down and watched it with my kids.  The youngest ones wanted to watch it two or three times with me.  The show was done in a very reasonable manner, maybe even a little too kind to the church.  I wasn’t showing them the show to turn them against the church, but to help expose them to a few concepts.  The church does not always talk about its embarassing history.  I told them that after watching that show, they knew more about MMM that probably 99% of the adults in the church.  I pointed out that all LDS folks are not charitable all the time.  I asked them about the Golden Rule and how it would have applied in that situation.  I pointed out that people lied about MMM for a long time to protect themselves and others.  Probably my biggest point was that most of these men were just doing what their church leaders told them to do.  Church leaders are not always right.  We should ALWAYS use the Golden Rule to help us determine whether or not we should do what the church leaders said.  I would even follow that up with a BY quote or two in which he said that the members should be responsible for their own decisions and not just follow what their leaders say [well, he also contradicted himself there, but I didn’t tell them that.]

3.  With my teens, I have told them that when they have interviews that they should not answer any questions which may them uncomfortable.  I tell them that if they are pushed, they are to tell the bishop that I told them that they were not to talk about it, and they were respecting my role as their father.

4.  With my oldest, I have talked about JS’s polygamy and polyandry.  I have emphasized that there is a fairly large gulf at times between what is taught at church and what the more objective reality is.  I will do the same with the other kids as they get older and a little more able to understand the concepts and what they mean.

5.  With my oldest, I have emphasized that compared to most members, I see things more mythically and less literally.  I have also told her repeatedly that if she ever has ANY questions about the church that she should feel free to ask me.  I will do the same with the other kids as they get older and a little more able to understand the concepts and what they mean.

6.  My wife and I are openly negative about silly church cultural issues.  I usually wear colored or striped shirts to church.

7.  With all the kids, I regularly tell them that they should not believe something just because someone tells them.  This applies to church and other places.  They should always feel like they can question anyone.  If someone tells them that they should not question, they should be very suspicious of that person, or the things which came from him/her.

8.  With my oldest, I have given her a summary on Fowler’s stages of faith.  I have told her about the literalness of stage three and have tried to explain what stage four is and that most people who move to stage four (at least outside the LDS church) do so roughly in their early twenties.  I have told her that BYU and the common early marriages of LDS kids artificially locks them into stage 3 by not allowing them to question and discover things for themselves.

9.  My wife and I have openly expressed that the church is wrong with regards to its stance on homosexuality.

There are probably several other things I have done, but these are the things that pop to the top of my mind.  I never tell them the church is true.  I tell them that there are truths in the church and there are truths in other churches and outside of religion in general.  I teach them that we have been blessed with a tremendous blessing, a brain.  I explain the story of Galileo and that he did not believe that God would give us a brain to understand, reason, decide, etc., then ask us not to use it.

What I hope I am doing is creating the situation where they know they have choices and that they know it is not only okay, but it is expected that they will question, think, and discuss religion and other things in their lives.  Will this all work?  I dunno.  The jury is out.  If nothing else, perhaps it will set a foundation for less dogmatic, more accepting adults.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

I’m kind of floating on auto-pilot as far as the kids.  DW knows I’m a NOM, she’s ok with it, in my new search for “the truth”. My kids don’t know.  I’m messed up enough myself right now.   I can’t see being totally open with my new-found disillusionment only to create teenage zombies around here.

---

I would suggest gaining your own stability before trying to help your kids see another way.  I have found James Fowler’s Stages of Faith to be amazingly helpful in understanding the cognitive maturation process in general, and particularly as it relates to maturation in Faith.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

where is the meaningful truth in the First Vision myth?

---

Ask Peggy. She recently expressed it very well.

Finding the meaningful truth in the First Vision rather depends upon what you take the First Vision to mean. The church proclaims it as proof that JS was near flawless and that the current organization must be obeyed. I have a hard time extracting meaningful truth from that.

Personally, I think that Joseph did have an experience that was somewhat akin to what we know as his First Vision. The implication and understanding of that experience have changed in various ways over the years. Even Joseph’s own understanding of it and implications thereby changed. I find some interesting meaningful truths can be extracted.

---

Of course, I don’t personally think that most LDS mythology contains a lot of meaningful truth (where is the meaningful truth in the First Vision myth?

---

————————-
…it is always better to find humility before it goes out looking for you. — Carolyn Hax

---

so james. hold that kid tight. speak to her in the same voice you speak to everyone else, like a person that is absorbing all you have to share, and tell the truth. thats all she is asking for. she wants to laugh with you when she is older, and not have to spend her time retracing her steps.

---

I have found this to be so true. My oldest is 6 and we are best friends because I talk to him just like I talk to anyone else. Our subject matter is different though. And I dumb down some things to talk at his level of understanding, but I will always talk to him as a person. I am doing the same with my 3 year old and will do the same with my 1 year old. My goal is to be my kids friends as well as their parent. This is not to say that they do not have rules. But I feel that I must balance the parent role with a good relationship with them. It was something I didn’t have and feel I would have had a more full and productive childhood if my relationship with my parents was stronger and deeper.

ME, what are your plans when it comes time for baptism? Is your extended family expecting your DD to be baptised? or have they been told about your (and Hotmo) leaving(?) the church?

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

---

I have been quietly using this with my oldest, explaining to him that there are different kinds of truth. He just finished the Narnia series. I asked him if it was true, and he, correctly, said no. I then asked if there was truth in it. After some discussion, he acknowledged that, yes, there was indeed. I explained that often, stories are presented as “literally” true in order to convey “truth”–that’s what CS Lewis did. Sometimes we do that in Church, too. I asked him about the parable of the Good Samaritan. Was it true? He wasn’t sure. I told him that it was a story Jesus told, and was probably not literally true. But the story teaches a lot of truth.

---

Thanks for posting this Morzeez. This may be the road I take with my kids in regards to the bible and BoM. DW is very TBM so it is up to me to plant the seed of inquiry in my kids. How old is your oldest? and how well does this work?

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

---

ME, what are your plans when it comes time for baptism? Is your extended family expecting your DD to be baptised? or have they been told about your (and Hotmo) leaving(?) the church?

---

we have told our parents, but its unclear how they percieve our current position. perhaps they see it accurately but it seems they view it as less severe than it is.

we will not baptise our kids under any circumstances. im not sure that is what people want to see on the nom board, but unless hotmo can do it, it aint happenin. if our kids decide as adults to join up with the church, they are welcome to do so but at age 8 it would be the decision of their parents, exclusively, and i cant be part of that.

this reminds me of something. my mission president arrived in the mission home with three children. two toddlers and an adopted daughter that was well beyond age 8. their oldest was not baptised until she was 15 years old and had been in the mission with her parents for well over a year. if my kids were to decide to go to church and make such a decision at 15, i would have fewer objections. though i cant say, given my current state, that i would have none.

i agree with gdteacher that this is THE topic and critical subject of the nom board. i dont think nom would have as relevant of a role without the issue related to kids. even where spouses disagree, i think those issues would work out, or dissolve relationships, where the kid factor seems to perpetuate the need to be nom, imo.

i appreciate the comments on here about older children. maybe its my rose colored glasses failing me, but it sure seems as if it is very complicated to uncharter a strict tbm life with older children. i much prefer to tackle this with young kids that still like me, even when i am a rotten dad. i am lucky though, i am lagniappe in our home as the other parent is the most excellent parent i have ever seen. (hey, can i mention here that i have also seen her naked? because its true, i have seen her naked – a lot!)

————————-
Keep this topic on JS”s wives and children. If sex is brought up again in any form the thread will be closed. It is tasteless and unnecessary. -Dunamis, 12/27/2005

---

Oh, man. To me, this topic is THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC on NOM. I’ve been living this for almost three years. I can deal with my life as a NOM. I have a pretty good life. I have not been too negatively impacted by coming to understand a more objective reality of the church. I worry about my kids. I worry about my potential future grandkids. I worry about the hundreds of thousands of dollars that my kids may pay to the church instead of funding college for their kids. I worry about the fact that some people, potentially my kids or grandkids, are impacted very negatively by aspects of the church. My kids range 10-18.My family knows of my church status as a questioning, but practicing liberal member. My current “goals,” right or wrong, are to give my kids the tools they need and the support they need

---

These are great ideas and thoughts. Thanks GDTeacher. Much of what you say is what I hope to emulate in the future as my kids grow. I think that one of the keys to happiness is a questioning attitude. Not confrontational but questioning. I also really liked the wording you used … “thinking, questing, questioning” … with emphasis on questing. This is what I try to do. I’m not the smartest person around but I love to learn. I have made it my quest in life. The only way to find and make answers part of you is to always seek knowledge. My mind feels like a leaky bucket that I am always trying to keep half full. I hope to impart this quest on to my kids. Again, thanks for your thoughts, you are a wise man.

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

Reply to : Perthro

I’m petitioning my fellow NOMs on the subject of raising kids…..

Perthro,Thanks for bringing up this topic.  All ready, I’ve seen many thoughtful comments and will print out this thread.  Here’s how I’m currently handling things.  My children are young (Junior Primary) and this year they  are on the 70-minute plan.  (Although DH goes for three hours.)

( Note : In the last couple of years, I have seen that Primary is quite different from the Primary of my day.  It appears to me to be more oriented to indoctrination and dogmatism.   Three year old boys in white shirts and ties seem a bit ‘over the top’ to me.  Four year old reciting verses out of the “Book of Abraham” seems a bit wacky to me.)

When I read Bible stories, I present them as ‘stories’ and am stressing their metaphorical lessons.  As an example, ‘Noah’s Ark’ and ‘Jonah and the Whale’ are presented for their message as ‘parables’ of sorts rather than as literal stories.  I asked my older child … do you think that all the animals fit in a boat ?  as we look at a picture book depicting kangaroos hopping onto the Ark.  My son understands that it is a story and says, “No.”  I also feel that children can learn ethical stories from modern authors such as Dr. Seuss (“The Lorax”, “The Sneetches” etc.) and The Berenstains as well as from cultural folktales.

As the children get older, they may ask questions, I leave my Sunstone issues around the house.  DH and I often discuss theological books that we read or “Speaking of Faith” segments from NPR.  So, the children will grow up in a home where questions and dialogue are welcome.

As they get older, I foresee that things may change.  Like Mayan Elephant, I do not approve of baptism for 8 year olds as I do not feel they have the maturity to make this type of decision.  I also am uncomfortable with the lock-step programs … especially for boys … that put them on a narrow path towards Eagle Scout, Seminary Graduation, Mission … Because of our family situation, I foresee that our children will be enrolled in a school-based Scouting program and be influenced toward either the Military Services or a volunteer group such as Americorps since this was a path my DH has travelled (he’s an adult LDS convert).  Most importantly, our children will be exposed to a variety of positive choices and will not be subjected to dogmatic statements at home.

In any case, our family is already viewed as non-conformists in our ward (at least at a real quick first glance) so I think that people will just let us be (We live in an area that is pretty relaxed … I have seen men come to church in traditional skirt-like garments.  Some men have top-knots).  We shall see.

“Anne”

————————-
Your time is limited, so don`t waste it living someone else`s life. Don`t be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people`s thinking. Don`t let the noise of others` opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. — Steve Jobs

Message edited by: Anne Hutchinson on 01/19/2006 17:52:29[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]

I don’t have much to add–I agree with much of what GDT says.  I would, however, say that being literal (like the 3yo who thinks all the Bible stories are true) is not such a bad thing, esp at that age.  It helps provide a framework for truth later on.  Why do we tell children there’s a Santa?  Does it damage them or make them believe all sorts of fairy tales when they are older?  I think it’s an important part of them being able, later in life, to sort out mthos from logos.   Noah and Jonah and JS aren’t such terrible things to believe, are they?  at least on the most superficial level (which is all the young ones can grasp, anyway.)

---

Oh, man. To me, this topic is THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC on NOM. I’ve been living this for almost three years. I can deal with my life as a NOM. I have a pretty good life. I have not been too negatively impacted by coming to understand a more objective reality of the church. I worry about my kids. I worry about my potential future grandkids. I worry about the hundreds of thousands of dollars that my kids may pay to the church instead of funding college for their kids. I worry about the fact that some people, potentially my kids or grandkids, are impacted very negatively by aspects of the church. My kids range 10-18.My family knows of my church status as a questioning, but practicing liberal member. My current “goals,” right or wrong, are to give my kids the tools they need and the support they need

---

Great advice GDTeacher, all the way to getting a hold on things for ourselves. We have 2 young daughters and I worry most about them after observing the torment DW has gone through. I dont want them to think they are not as good as the AP Deacon passing the Sac, or the MIssionary speaking at his non-farewell, or the worshipping of the RM, the 3 Kings(no Queens) sitting on the stand every week and on and on. I just cringe every time a YM advances, needs the sustaining high 5, and then the YW has a birthday and all the Bishop can do is tell us how much he loves her.

I love your ideas on the interviews, that one has really bugged me with daughters.

Keep up the good work – your thoughts are welcome here.

————————-
That Will Do

---

Oh, man. To me, this topic is THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC on NOM. I’ve been living this for almost three years. I can deal with my life as a NOM. I have a pretty good life. I have not been too negatively impacted by coming to understand a more objective reality of the church. I worry about my kids. I worry about my potential future grandkids. I worry about the hundreds of thousands of dollars that my kids may pay to the church instead of funding college for their kids. I worry about the fact that some people, potentially my kids or grandkids, are impacted very negatively by aspects of the church. My kids range 10-18.My family knows of my church status as a questioning, but practicing liberal member. My current “goals,” right or wrong, are to give my kids the tools they need and the support they need

---

Thanks for the insightful responses everyone. Perhaps this thread could eventually be added to the NOM Board’s Greatest Hits? BTW, DW also enjoyed reading the comments.

James

---

Do I have the right to destroy his faith by coming out and telling him all that I know? I don’t think I do, eventhough I was the one to push him into those things during my TBM days. Some days I really feel like a hypocrite.

---

wow. your relationship and considerations are the inverse of many here that struggle to tell their parents. it sounds like your dilemna is compounded as you have at least one child that would greatly benefit from a frank discussion of your assessment of the church, and one that would appear to benefit from a continuation of the same recognizable patterns.

GG, in all likelihood, your kids will outlive you, its all of our hopes. are you really prepared to continue as a nom for the duration of this life in order to sustain *his* faith in something that you are questioning? is it worth the risk, for you to encourage him to continue, only for him to find at a later date that you werent sincere in your own faith? i am curious to know why he become so convicted in the faith in which you would be willing to be perpetually nom?

————————-
Keep this topic on JS”s wives and children. If sex is brought up again in any form the thread will be closed. It is tasteless and unnecessary. -Dunamis, 12/27/2005

Message edited by: Mayan Elephant on 01/20/2006 10:24:27[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]

How do you really know how TBM your children are if you never broach the subject. I was not too long ago so gung-ho that I had “CLD2SRV” on my license plate. Others here appear outwardly to be uber-Mormons when inside they have doubts, qualms, questions, and concerns that are eating them up. Maybe if you showed a little fortitude and courage in your convictions (or lack thereof), your kids would be inspired and relieved rather than hurt and confused. You won’t really know how they will react unless you tell them. With small children I think the situation is different (for the same reason I don’t think you tell a 5-year-old that you don’t believe in the Easter Bunny). But with adults, you ought to be honest enough at least to say you have issues with the church even if you don’t want to share all the details. After all, truth will set you free, and truth is “the fairest gem to which mortals or Gods can aspire.” Isn’t it strange that the church culture tends to suppress open and honest communication of one’s true thoughts and feelings (unless those thoughts and feelings are perfectly aligned with church dogma). I do find it fascinating how many of us have trouble expressing ourselves on spiritual matters to our friends and family. And I wonder about a church culture that perpetuates such a situation.

————————-
” I”m very well acquainted with the seven deadly sins
I keep a busy schedule trying to fit them in
I”m proud to be a glutton and I don”t have time for sloth
I”m greedy and I”m angry and I don”t care who I cross”

---

Oh, man. To me, this topic is THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC on NOM.

---

Wow,  great responses to this important topic,  I have 4 kids, 7,5,3,1 and with the oldest’s baptism coming up, this topic has become more important.  At this point, DW’s conviction is so strong that opposing DD’s baptism would be detremental to our relationship.  Right now I’m just going with the flow.  Interesting to note about DW is that she is a very logical individual, but questioning the doctrine/statments of the prophets is off limits.

---

Wow, great responses to this important topic, I have 4 kids, 7,5,3,1 and with the oldest’s baptism coming up, this topic has become more important. At this point, DW’s conviction is so strong that opposing DD’s baptism would be detremental to our relationship. Right now I’m just going with the flow. Interesting to note about DW is that she is a very logical individual, but questioning the doctrine/statments of the prophets is off limits.

---

You are me, except I only have three, and your 5 year old is my 6 year old, and I don’t have a three year old.

————————-
Instead of a sandwich every day at 2:15, why didn’t Charlie’s wife go down to Scollay Square Station and just give him one more nickel?

---

You are me, except I only have three, and your 5 year old is my 6 year old, and I don’t have a three year old.

---

whaaaaaaa? huh? is this vicodin?

————————-
Keep this topic on JS”s wives and children. If sex is brought up again in any form the thread will be closed. It is tasteless and unnecessary. -Dunamis, 12/27/2005

---

whaaaaaaa? huh? is this vicodin?

---

Uhh, yeah, maybe. But it’s codienne, not vicodin. I meant that his situation is almost exactly like mine except I have only three kids, ages 7, 6, and (next week) 1 years old. The wife’s attitude sounds eerily familiar. My wife is very intelligent, and is so logical and scientific, but refuses to examine her own religious beliefs and gets mad when I try to force the issue. I lost the baptism argument get to don a white polyester jumpsuit and give my daughter a very short, public bath in almost exactly four weeks.

————————-
Instead of a sandwich every day at 2:15, why didn’t Charlie’s wife go down to Scollay Square Station and just give him one more nickel?

---

You are me, except I only have three, and your 5 year old is my 6 year old, and I don’t have a three year old.

---

And I am the eggman, goo-goo goo-joob.

————————-
” I”m very well acquainted with the seven deadly sins
I keep a busy schedule trying to fit them in
I”m proud to be a glutton and I don”t have time for sloth
I”m greedy and I”m angry and I don”t care who I cross”

Reply to : prairie chuck

…. I would, however, say that being literal (like the 3yo who thinks all the Bible stories are true) is not such a bad thing, esp at that age. It helps provide a framework for truth later on. Why do we tell children there’s a Santa? Does it damage them or make them believe all sorts of fairy tales when they are older? I think it’s an important part of them being able, later in life, to sort out mthos from logos. Noah and Jonah and JS aren’t such terrible things to believe, are they? at least on the most superficial level (which is allthe young ones can grasp, anyway.) …..

Interesting perspective.  In my situation, I view it fairly necessary for my children to see some Bible and cultural stories as metaphors rather than as literal.  I grew up with a lot of dogmatic views that I picked up from LDS church classes … which I have obviously tempered. I desire that my children grow up ‘more open minded’.   Also, our extended family includes a variety of Christian and non-Christian traditions.Already, I have heard my 5 yo make comments based on things he has heard in primary.  Example, he saw a photo of a baby being baptized and questioned the mode of baptism … implying that it was the ‘wrong’ way.  DH and I mentioned that different traditions have different ways of baptizing and left it at that.

The recent issue of Sunstone had an interesting article written from the perspective of a “Santa Dissenter” … a thought-provoking look at the potential downsides of Santa.  Reading the article helped to justify some of my views for having a toned-down holiday season.  Very limited holiday decor …

link — > http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazine/issues/139/46-49.pdf

“Anne”

————————-
Your time is limited, so don`t waste it living someone else`s life. Don`t be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people`s thinking. Don`t let the noise of others` opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. — Steve Jobs

---

Already, I have heard my 5 yo make comments based on things he has heard in primary. Example, he saw a photo of a baby being baptized and questioned the mode of baptism … implying that it was the ‘wrong’ way. DH and I mentioned that different traditions have different ways of baptizing and left it at that.

---

If he didn’t use the word “abomination” then his primary teachers just aren’t doing their jobs well.
————————-
” I”m very well acquainted with the seven deadly sins
I keep a busy schedule trying to fit them in
I”m proud to be a glutton and I don”t have time for sloth
I”m greedy and I”m angry and I don”t care who I cross”

---

Our oldest is an RM, MIT.  Do I have the right to destroy his faith by coming out and telling him all that I know?  I don’t think I do, even though I was the one to push him into those things during my TBM days.  Some days I really feel like a hypocrite.

---

I see your point. I think it is one thing if he wasn’t MIT, but now there is an addition to the family (DSs DW) and that complicates the situation. But I also think that we should be grown-ups about life and our decisions by telling people how we feel. That doesn’t mean that we should drop the bomb without regard to the others feelings in mind, but to ease into things. Inside the church there seems to be a lack of respect for others with different veiws. I wish I had all the answers!

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

---

for all i know, i am making mistakes with my kids. but just as i consider that if i do stand before a god one day, i may need to explain that i have been wrong, i may be a fool, but for petesakes i was doing what was logical and what seemed honest. i hope my superduper kids can point out all my awful mistakes and i can say the same to them, that i thought it was logical and honest (plus, nanna p never stopped me from going down this path)

---

I think we all worry that we are making mistakes with our kids, well at least most of us.  ME, you are being honest.  You are doing a good thing.  You and hotmo are to be commended.  I do think the point which you bring up about being able to do this with your kids when they are relatively young is very important.  Dealing with indoctrinated teens seems to be more difficult than the younger kids.

And…., if you get to the pearly gates and JS says, “Why did you leave the church,” you can always say, “Nanna P never stopped me!”

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

Reply to : MorzeezOf course, I don’t personally think that most LDS mythology contains a lot of meaningful truth (where is the meaningful truth in the First Vision myth?Since Jeff gave me the nod, I’ll tackle this — which I had thought of doing earlier, but didn’t want to go too much off track in the thread.I’d say that it makes a big difference whether you see the First Vision as mythos or logos. And lots of LDS members see it as logos: Joseph prayed in the right way, and at the right time, and got the answer that the world had been waiting for, and the LDS church is the outcome. There are plenty of people who don’t believe any such thing happened, so how can such a story be meaningful to them?Here’s ho

---

Peggy, I just love your mythical rendition of the value of the First Vision (or was that the second or third???).  It was very useful.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

i appreciate the comments on here about older children. maybe its my rose colored glasses failing me, but it sure seems as if it is very complicated to uncharter a strict tbm life with older children. i much prefer to tackle this with young kids that still like me, even when i am a rotten dad. i am lucky though, i am lagniappe in our home as the other parent is the most excellent parent i have ever seen. (hey, can i mention here that i have also seen her naked? because its true, i have seen her naked – a lot!)

---

ME, I happen to know that you are NOT a rotten dad.  You self-deprecating piece of slime…, just kidding.

I’m a little shocked about the other revelation.  Does hotmo actually know that you have seen her naked, or is that one of those little secrets?

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

I totally sympathise with what has posted so far; I have children and I am not sure how to present my nomhood to them; but the main difference with my children is that that they are older (except for desert_vulture). One is a newly returned RM and the rest are teenagers with two of them intending to go toEFY this year and my DW is TBM so I am in the minority. I guess like all parents I don’t want to look back in years to come with regret because of making a bad decision now. IMHO the problem is that both options (attendance or non-attendance) are fraught with risks and problems. The church has brainwashed us all about the dangers of non-compliance and non-attendance and this sometimes freezes me with fear as I contemplate all of the terrible things that “will” happen to my children outside of the church. When I get these feelings I tr

---

These thoughts and concerns are very real for me as well.  My kids are in the same general range as yours, but you have a little bit older children.  I have two wanting to go to EFY this year.

I don’t know if I am handling my situation optimally or not.  I just don’t know.  But like you, I hope I don’t look back years down the road and regret my decisions as being bad.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

hi Ann! I haven’t seen you for a while and am glad you dropped in.I don’t have much to add–I agree with much of what GDT says. I would, however, say that being literal (like the 3yo who thinks all the Bible stories are true) is not such a bad thing, esp at that age. It helps provide a framework for truth later on. Why do we tell children there’s a Santa? Does it damage them or make them believe all sorts of fairy tales when they are older? I think it’s an important part of them being able, later in life, to sort out mthos from logos. Noah and Jonah and JS aren’t such terrible things to believe, are they? at least on the most superficial level (which is allthe young ones can grasp, anyway.)

---

prarie chuck, I may agree with you, but I’m not sure.  I think at the point that children start to understand what a parable is should be the time that logos vs. mythos begins to be explained.  I think that many three year olds would have a hard time with the concept of a parable and why would someone tell a story that wasn’t real to teach a lesson.  My kids have been very responsive to the logos/mythos discussions when I started with them (7 years was the youngest when I started and completely understood).  I suspect, depending on the child, you could start nicely at age four or five, but I suspect it depends on the child.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

Reply to : GDTeacherOh, man. To me, this topic is THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC on NOM. I’ve been living this for almost three years. I can deal with my life as a NOM. I have a pretty good life. I have not been too negatively impacted by coming to understand a more objective reality of the church. I worry about my kids. I worry about my potential future grandkids. I worry about the hundreds of thousands of dollars that my kids may pay to the church instead of funding college for their kids. I worry about the fact that some people, potentially my kids or grandkids, are impacted very negatively by aspects of the church. My kids range 10-18.My family knows of my church status as a questioning, but practicing liberal member. My current “goals,” right or wrong, are to give my kids the tools they need and the support they need

---

My oldest daughter, 17, has mentioned this issue to me about 20-30 times in the last five years.  She hates how much this marginalizes the YW.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

prarie chuck, I may agree with you, but I’m not sure.  I think at the point that children start to understand what a parable is should be the time that logos vs. mythos begins to be explained.  I think that many three year olds would have a hard time with the concept of a parable and why would someone tell a story that wasn’t real to teach a lesson.  My kids have been very responsive to the logos/mythos discussions when I started with them (7 years was the youngest when I started and completely understood).  I suspect, depending on the child, you could start nicely at age four or five, but I suspect it depends on the child.

---

I have been thinking about Prarie chucks post quite a bit. I read the Santa story on dialogue or sunstone (can’t remember where it was now but link was in a thread here on NOM or in the Foyer) and I think there is quite a difference between fairy tales and mythos: that is scripture. My 6 year old is (IMHO) very intelligent. He was at three as well. I think it is important to plant the seed of inquiry very young. I have tried to do it with my kids and I think it is working. We’ll see down the road. I think it is easy to underestimate small kids because they don’t know how a microwave oven works or how electricity makes things move. But IMO we need to do as ME has mentioned above. That is to speak to them as they are people and not exclude them from conversation just becasue they are little and have a limited life experience so far.

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

Message edited by: Perthro on 01/20/2006 20:31:05[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]

---

in my opinion, there isnt a quality standard for information you can share with kids other than *true or untrue.* if the truth is too much for a kid, then the topic may be avoided, but there is rarely a place for white lies or whitewashed versions of important things. one of the hardest sundays i had was when i was in the nursery and realized that some of the lesson material was too much for the kids. i cant remember if it was the flood or the creation story, but something jarred me when i realized that the presentation to them was factual, and to me it was mythical. …..

…..so james. hold that kid tight. speak to her in the same voice you speak to everyone else, like a person that is absorbing all you have to share, and tell the truth. thats all she is asking for. she wants to laugh with you when she is older, and not have to spend her time retracing her steps.

---

I had to pick this post out becasue it has caused me to reflect alot on this subject. I was looking through the PoGP this morning and my 6 year old was sitting next to me. I came across the picture of Abraham being “sacraficed” at the alter. He asked me about it. I was totally caught off guard. I didn’t know what to tell him. DW doesn’t want me to talk about the “controversial” topics to our kids. I couldn’t even bring myself to tell him the myth story of it. So I asked him what he thought it was. He is very into acient egyptian mythology right now so I was able to steer the conversation well enough that he gat a grasp of its true meaning. The reason I bring this up is because I have concluded that I need to have a game plan right now! I can’t wait for something to come up and then think about how I could have handled it better afterwards. I need to know where I stand on telling my kids my views and understandings of things. I need to make sure that they get the idea that I am still a learning being and learning is VERY important in this life. The thoughts that I have read in this thread have been tremendously helpfull to me, thank you very much. I hope the thread continues and more is said of many experiences and trials that you have gone through.

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

---

Reply to : GDTeacherprarie chuck, I may agree with you, but I’m not sure. I think at the point that children start to understand what a parable is should be the time that logos vs. mythos begins to be explained. I think that many three year olds would have a hard time with the concept of a parable and why would someone tell a story that wasn’t real to teach a lesson. My kids have been very responsive to the logos/mythos discussions when I started with them (7 years was the youngest when I started and completely understood). I suspect, depending on the child, you could start nicely at age four or five, but I suspect it depends on the child.I have been thinkingabout Prarie chucks post quite a bit. I read the Santa story on dialogu

---

Thanks for your insights and experiences.  My youngest was seven when I hit the NOM wall, so that was the youngest child I had with which to work.  I know that he was well past the stage of being able to understand, so it sounds as if your experience may be particularly relevant.  Hats off to you and to ME for the recommendation.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

wow. your relationship and considerations are the inverse of many here that struggle to tell their parents. it sounds like your dilemna is compounded as you have at least one child that would greatly benefit from a frank discussion of your assessment of the church, and one that would appear to benefit from a continuation of the same recognizable patterns.GG, in all likelihood, your kids will outlive you, its all of our hopes. are you really prepared to continue as a nom for the duration of this life in order

---

This is the million dollar question….I don’t know what I am prepared to do.  DS is married to the daughter of DH best HS friend.  And to compound the problem, our Bishop is the uncle of our DIL.  I know it is confusing and complicated and that is why I am taking it slow.  I admire you and your honesty with your children.  You have given me much to think about.  Thanks!

---

Reply to : Mayan Elephantwow. your relationship and considerations are the inverse of many here that struggle to tell their parents. it sounds like your dilemna is compounded as you have at least one child that would greatly benefit from a frank discussion of your assessment of the church, and one that would appear to benefit from a continuation of the same recognizable patterns.GG, in all likelihood, your kids will outlive you, its all of our hopes. are you really prepared to continue as a nom for the duration of this life in orderThis is the million dollar question….I don’t know what I am prepared to do. DS is married to the daughter of DH best HS friend. And to compound the problem, our Bishop is the uncle of our DIL. I know it is confusing and compli

---

By chance have you had a chance to read the Braithwaite’s book, A Mormon Odyssey?  It tells the story of an older couple, older than you and me, and how they dealt with the coming to know of the more objective reality of the church.  One of the cool things about the book is that it is free online.  Their experiences are in some ways similar to many of us and in some ways unique, as much of their knowledge came as they were serving as temple workers in the Manti temple.  They discuss in some ways how this impacted their children.  In this situation, the husband found out first.  It describes the torment in the marriage that happened as they were “unequally yoked” for a time.  If you have the time, it is probably well worth the read.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

---

GG:How do youreallyknow how TBM your children are if you never broach the subject. I was not too long ago so gung-ho that I had “CLD2SRV” on my license plate. Others here appear outwardly to be uber-Mormons when inside they have doubts, qualms, questions, and concerns that are eating them up. Maybe if you showed a little fortitude and courage in your convictions (or lack thereof), your kids would be inspired and relieved rather than hurt and confused. You won’t really know how they will react unless you tell them. With small children I think the situation is different (for the same reason I don’t think you tell a 5-year-old that you don’t believe in the Easter Bunny). But with adults, you ought to be honest enough at least to say you have issues with the church even if you don’t want to share all the details. After all, truth will set you free, and truth is “the

---

I am worried about their unknown reactions, hence the slow pace.  I also realize that their reactions could be no big deal.  I agree with everything you say.  I just need to “gird up the loins” I guess.  Waiting for the right time is the key.

With adult friends it is much easier to express my issues with the Church.  It is different with an adult child that you raised to believe these things.  There is a trust that I don’t want to break.

Thanks for the input, you have helped to spark some courage.

---

Reply to : Greek GoddessReply to : Mayan Elephantwow. your relationship and considerations are the inverse of many here that struggle to tell their parents. it sounds like your dilemna is compounded as you have at least one child that would greatly benefit from a frank discussion of your assessment of the church, and one that would appear to benefit from a continuation of the same recognizable patterns.GG, in all likelihood, your kids will outlive you, its all of our hopes. are you really prepared to continue as a nom for the duration of this life in orderThis is the million dollar question….I don’t know what I am prepared to do. DS is married to the daughter of DH best HS friend. And to compound the problem, our Bishop is the uncle of our DIL. I know it is confusing and compli

---

I have read part of their story online, but I have not read the book.  Thanks for reminding me about them.  They are from the area that I live currently.  I am going to get the book.

In my case, I’ve tried to present a multifaceted view of the church and its history & teachings. When the subject presents itself, I toss out a fact that shows it isn’t a simple, black/white thing. I think it important not to go too far overboard, because you want to give your child/spouse a little bit to think about, something s/he can use to reach a conclusion independently. Presenting too much info, or doing it too harshly, results in psychological defenses being thrown up. If that happens, then you can count on them not really ‘hearing’ you or what you’re saying.

In my case, dd called my wife yesterday to tell her some big news: She had her first kiss. They talked all about it, about the boy, and on and on. What’s interesting is that they did not talk about his religion. It’s been nearly 24 hours, and the subject of his religion (almost certainly no LDS, given where she’s attending college) has not come up.

It doesn’t result in a sure thing, but what in life *is* a sure thing? Who knows — dd may decide that LDS is the way to go, and I’ll be somewhere with my young son when she is married. But either way, it is her choice. For now, I just want to do things to make clear that I support her ability to make those choices.

————————-
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. — Voltaire, 1694-1778

---

In my case, dd called my wife yesterday to tell her some big news: She had her first kiss. They talked all about it, about the boy, and on and on. What’s interesting is that they did not talk about his religion. It’s been nearly 24 hours, and the subject of his religion (almost certainly no LDS, given where she’s attending college) has not come up.

It doesn’t result in a sure thing, but what in life *is* a sure thing? Who knows — dd may decide that LDS is the way to go, and I’ll be somewhere with my young son when she is married.

---

That was a awfully quick mental trip from “she had her first kiss” to “when she is married”! If he’s not LDS (and not conservative Christian either), then you will probably have a loooooonnnnnng time to wait before any hypothetical wedding.

————————-
No le gusta caminar. No puede montar a caballo. ¿Cómo se puede bailar? ¡Es un escándalo!

---

That was a awfully quick mental trip from “she had her first kiss” to “when she is married”! If he’s not LDS (and not conservative Christian either), then you will probably have a loooooonnnnnng time to wait before any hypothetica

---

Yeah- I didn’t say very well what I meant to say. My point was that I was pleasantly surprised that there wasn’t any mention of his religion at all. None. That simply wouldn’t have been the case several years ago. The talk would have been all about temple weddings, etc etc, way over the top. To have reached this point, and have none of that enter into the conversation (“Is he LDS?” “Did you meet at church or institute?”) is a pleasant surprise. that’s all I’m trying to say. The marriage and temple aspect has just been on my mind lately because of a friend, who’s stood outside a couple of temples recently while her kids got married. I wasn’t very clear in my earlier post.

————————-
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. — Voltaire, 1694-1778

It’s just that the long, long wait before any guy my age would be ready to even think seriously about marriage is getting on my single-girl nerves lately, so that is what jumped out at me.

————————-
No le gusta caminar. No puede montar a caballo. ¿Cómo se puede bailar? ¡Es un escándalo!

---

There are plenty of people who don’t believe any such thing happened, so how can such a story be meaningful to them?Here’s how:

---

I can see your point. I suppose I haven’t fully processed this particular event fully. It hasn’t, in my mind, evolved yet from “lie” to “myth.” For me, the meaning of the lie supersedes the meaning of the myth.

————————-
Better to shoot for the stars and miss than to shoot for a cow pie and hit it.

I’m a working mom with four kids.  Husband is more of a believer than me, but his willingness to go along with me in breaking rules selectively makes me wonder.  For now I’m pretty much committed to sticking with church because I don’t want to deal with the fallout that would come from leaving.

My oldest was 7 when I realized I didn’t believe, so her baptism was pretty difficult for me.  Now I’ve got two baptized kids, and the second one was easier, because I’d just decided to go with the flow by that time.  In the last two years we’ve actually become more “churchy”, after a period of relative inactivity.  Part of that fallout I mentioned is what it might do to my kids if we just switched horses mid-stream.  I feel like we’ve come this far with them and it would be unfair to yank the whole thing out from under them.  When I first went NOM I looked at some other churches, but quickly realized that I would have a really hard time going anywhere else.  Either they were too hard line, socially conservative, or too wishy washy.  I guess I’m hard to please. <g>

I don’t have any grand answers on what’s the best way to handle raising kids in the church when you don’t believe it.  My oldest is only 13, so I’m sure we have lots of interesting times ahead.  One thing I do feel good about is that I don’t think my kids will be actively harmed if they choose to be TBMs when they are adults.  I’ve felt envious more than once of people I see at church who appear to have bought into the whole thing.  OTOH, if they decide otherwise, they won’t have to worry that I’ll disown them or freak out – which would be the default response from my parents.  I guess I hope that when they are grown, I can be more open with them about it and know that I’ve given them the tools to make whatever decision they need to.

---

Hi. I’m new here – just found the forum last night. I’ve been a NOM for the past five years, although I didn’t know the term until yesterday. It’s been refreshing to see proof that I’m not a complete freak for sticking around when I don’t believe anymore.I’m a working mom with four kids. Husband is more of a believer than me, but his willingness to go along with me in breaking rules selectively makes me wonder. For now I’m pretty much committed to sticking with church because I don’t want to deal with the fallout that would come from leaving.My oldest was 7 when I realized I didn’t believe, so her baptism was pretty difficult for me. Now I’ve got two baptized kids, and the second one was easier, because I’d just decided to go with the flow by that time. In the last two years we’ve actually become more “churchy”

---

Welcome.

there are many threads here at nom that may pique your interest. in reading, you will learn that the children of the NOM posters range in age from tiny to great big annoying teenagers and beyoond. we look forward to hearing your perspective.

————————-
Keep this topic on JS”s wives and children. If sex is brought up again in any form the thread will be closed. It is tasteless and unnecessary. -Dunamis, 12/27/2005

Message edited by: Mayan Elephant on 01/25/2006 06:51:00[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]

---

Hi. I’m new here – just found the forum last night. I’ve been a NOM for the past five years, although I didn’t know the term until yesterday. It’s been refreshing to see proof that I’m not a complete freak for sticking around when I don’t believe anymore.I’m a working mom with four kids. Husband is more of a believer than me, but his willingness to go along with me in breaking rules selectively makes me wonder. For now I’m pretty much committed to sticking with church because I don’t want to deal with the fallout that would come from leaving.My oldest was 7 when I realized I didn’t believe, so her baptism was pretty difficult for me. Now I’ve got two baptized kids, and the second one was easier, because I’d just decided to go with the flow by that time. In the last two years we’ve actually become more “churchy”

---

I’d like to second Mayan Elephant’s welcome.  Many of us are in similar situations to yours.  Thanks for joining in.

————————-
“All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why” –James Thurber

“Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous.” — Henry David Thoreau

Looking forward to hearing more from you!

————————-
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. — Voltaire, 1694-1778

While still mormon and because of my childrens handicaps it dawned on me that the LDS gospel of Jesus Christ was not going to work for these children so I had to cut through all the fluff and decide what parts of the church they were going to understand.  It was the “golden rule”  So here as a believing mormon we began studying the New Testiment and focusing on Christs teaching.  Every family home evening was about how to apply the golden rule in our daily life, and our morning scripture reading was the NT.  I totally layed off on the restored gospel.

So here I was a believing member and totally ignoring the restoration.  It had no value to my abused foster children when it came to teaching them about love, kindness, compassion, empathy., morality.  The golden rule became the measuring stick used in our home for our behavior.  For example if someone took something that belong to their sibling it would be “How would you like it if I took your…..?”    “How would you like it if I hit you?”

As a result my own children learned what Jesus said was important to him and what in the church conflicted with Jesus’s teaching on love.  They asked a lot of questions.  Some to the extend that they were kicked out of class because evidently it was uncomfortable for the teachers to not have answers.

If you have believing spouses this will open up some dialog with them.  We had been studying the NT and when I started learning more about JS polygamy I asked my husband.  “What does this eternal requirement have to do with loving others as yourself.  How would you like it if I went to Heaven and was rewarded with 10 husbands?  Put yourself in my shoes.  Do you really think God would make a rule that would make someone miserable.  Would you require any of your children to live a life that would make them miserable..”   We all could relate on that level..

Even after trying and as a believer, 3 of my children had left the church.  I still had three left around the time we stopped believing.  It wasn’t a problem for any of them.  My youngest daughter had all kinds of questions about the chuch by then and we could have big long talks about our feelings and what stage we were at.  This is just a short version of everything that happened.  But I really, really believe that this is why my children left.  In fact not to long ago my oldest son told me “Mom, I learn more about being a Christian from home than I did from church.  You and Dad are the ones who taught me, not the church.”

Here’s a few good places to start on gathering information and teaching your children values based on the golden rule.

http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/goldrule.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

————————-
Latter-Day-Ain’t

---

Here’s a few good places to start on gathering information and teaching your children values based on the golden rule.

---

I don’t have children yet, but think about this kind of stuff alot. How would I teach my children morality, when in American culture today, the primary social context for moral discussion is, unfortunately, at church? Many of you, not just LDA, have mentioned the Golden Rule (great web sites, btw, lda); but for some reason that just seems inadequate to me. I suppose in general it works, but I want to teach my kids compassion. Is that not something you can realistically teach to children? Or are some people just not wired to think in those terms so the Golden Rule works better? Or is it too idealistic? Any thoughts?

————————-
“Heedful among the heedless, / wakeful among those asleep, / just as a fast horse advances / leaving the weak behind: / so the wise.” —The Dhammapada Book II v. 29

---

I don’t have children yet, but think about this kind of stuff alot. How would I teach my children morality, when in American culture today, the primary social context for moral discussion is, unfortunately, at church? Many of you, not just LDA, have mentioned the Golden Rule (great web sites, btw, lda); but for some reason that just seems inadequate to me. I suppose in general it works, but I want to teach my kids compassion. Is that not something you can realistically teach to children? Or are some people just not wired to think in those terms so the Golden Rule works better? Or is it too idealistic? Any thoughts?

---

I don’t call what I try to do with my kids following the golden rule. The idea behind the rule can work in many situations as a teaching tool. What I have found in many cases is that it is more complicated that just saying “how would you feel if so and so did that to you.” I agree with you that compassion is the “higher law” to the golden rule. The aplication of it has been harder than I expected though. Maybe it is becasue I have small kids (oldest is 6). My parents did a good job instilling the idea of compassion in me though so I know it can be done. (My parents were’nt the most attentive). Without a step by step guide in raising kids I just go forward doing my best. I tend to fall back on my own life experiences to a great deal too.

Perthro

————————-
The Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru:
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

So we do work a lot on compassion.  And thinking about the impact your actions have on others negative and positive. Karma, maybe?

Just today, I said to my boys (10 & 9-see the problem)”It hurts my heart so much when people I love fight.  How would you guys feel if Dad and I said snide things under our breath to each other?  What if every time I got by Dad I grabbed whatever he was holding and ran? What if Dad said ‘Loser’ under his breath after everything I said?”  They did admit that they wouldn’t like that AT ALL.  I really, really want them to be nice from the inside out.  I have them stop when they are being nasty and “start over”, but when they are not fighting, I point out,”That was really kind what D did for you.  S just saved his last square of choclate for you”.  I’m hoping to build a resevoir inside them of nice things to remember about each other when they are frustrated.

Being a Mom is hard.  I used to wonder how people could parent without the gospel.  Now I can’t image trying to manipulate my children like that anymore.  Before: Jesus wants you to be nice. Now: How will your life be better if you handle this situation with compassion?

Check back with me in oh…40 years-I’ll report on how it turns out.

---

My boys have a real gift for twisting things. I tried to teach them the Golden Rule, but this is what I get, “Well, Mom, he hit me, so that must be what he wants me to do to him.”So we do work a lot on compassion. And thinking about the impact your actions have on others negative and positive. Karma, maybe?Just today, I said to my boys (10 & 9-see the problem)”It hurts my heart so much when people I love fight. How would you guys feel if Dad and I said snide things under our breath to each other? What if every time I got by Dad I grabbed whatever he was holding and ran? What if Dad said ‘Loser’ under his breath after everything I said?” They did admit that they wouldn’t like that AT ALL. I really, really want them to be nice from the inside o

---

Please tell me if you ever figure out how to get this lesson through to them.  My two oldest (14yos and 10yos) are driving me NUTS!!!!!  It is almost non-stop picking and needling and provoking.  Aaaaaacccckkkk!!!!

---

I don’t have children yet, but think about this kind of stuff alot. How would I teach my children morality, when in American culture today, the primary social context for moral discussion is, unfortunately, at church? Many of you, not just LDA, have mentioned the Golden Rule (great web sites, btw, lda); but for some reason that just seems inadequate to me. I suppose in general it works, but I want to teach my kids compassion. Is that not something you can realistically teach to children? Or are some people just not wired to think in those terms so the Golden Rule works better? Or is it too idealistic? Any thoughts?

---

Thank you for your thoughts Cumom.  Don’t we learn compassion from the things we experience.  Perhaps you were one born with it, but I had to have a few hard knocks before I learned to sympathise with some people.  And doesn’t teaching your children to think about how they would feel if someone did something negative to them teach  them compassion sympathy and empathy.

compassion
(noun) : sympathetic consciousness of others’ distress together with a desire to alleviate it

sympathy
(noun) 1 a : an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly affects the other; b : mutual or parallel susceptibility or a condition brought about by it; c : unity or harmony in action or effect; 2 a : inclination to think or feel alike : emotional or intellectual accord; b : feeling of loyalty : tendency to favor or support <republican sympathies>; 3 a : the act or capacity of entering into or sharing the feelings or interests of another; b : the feeling or mental state brought about by such sensitivity <have sympathy for the poor>; 4 : the correlation existing between bodies capable of communicating their vibrational energy to one another through some medium

empathy
(noun) 1 : the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it; 2 : the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this

And to the question are some people not wired to think in terms of compassion here is a summary of Lawrance Kohlbergs stages of morality.

http://www.psychologydegree.net

So I’m guessing that  teaching the golden rule and expecting them to live it is a good way to begin to teach compassion, sympathy and empathy.

I find stage 1 interesting because I think thats where the church has its members trapped  presently.  It wasn’t always so.

Also you will be pleased to know Cumom that the schools are now teaching a program called Character Counts in which they try to emphasis and teach children what they call the 6 pillars of Character  ” trustworthiness, respect, responsibility, fairness, caring and citizenship”

http://www.charactercounts.org/     Many school districts around the US are using it.   The Golden rule can be tied right into those characteristics.   My suggestion also to teach the Golden rule was for those who are caught up in the church, with tbm spouses, and are  worried about the damage it is going to do to their children.  Thats why I suggested implementing the Golden Rule in the home.  It doesn’t upset the believing parent and it gets the children thinking about how the gospel of mormonism applies to the Golden rule taught by Jesus.