| Date Posted: 06/30/2001 11:51 AM Posted By: sweetpea Well, some background – walked out awhile back, did some studying and found what I wanted – the truth. Spent some time away, drank coffee/wine and now I want to return, but not fully return (still want the coffee/wine) Had the missionaries come by and told them I was a heathen but loved the church – of course they want me to return – I think I understand what that means, I think I understand that I can continue in my new freedoms and perhaps partially attend? Maybe not? I think that what keeps me from attending is knowing I will eventually be pulled into the bishop’s office and asked those questions – you know – do you uphold the president of the church as a profit of God? And stuff like that = is there a way around it? Should I lie? Should I find a creative way to say I do, without really saying it? I think being open about the WoW is probably fine, but I certainly don’t think the church is ‘true’ in the sense they will be asking. Any suggestions? =sweetpea |
| Date Posted: 06/30/2001 12:25 PM Posted By: Dathon Rank: sum, ergo cogito?Well it depends largely on the tone and culture of the ward you will be attending and how you respond to it. It is hypothetically possible that you could attend meetings and simply smile and decline invitations to bishop interviews. However in my experience most bishops want a one on one chat to get acquainted. If your bishop is an understanding and tolerant fellow he may accept that you want to attend but don’t necessarily want a TR, or callings and he may let you be. OTOH he could try to cajole you into increased activity or he could try strong arm tactics and guilt trips. People can be unpredictable and vary a great deal. I’ve heard that if you smile and express interest while declining for personal reasons that the approach often works or buys time. Good luck and watch out for the zealots who will want you to toe the line, hold to the rod, put your shoulder to the wheel, keep your nose to the grindstone all while your feet are firmly planted on the straight and relatively narrow path. (Personally I feel the path has lanes and a few banked curves.) ————————- |
| Date Posted: 07/01/2001 12:15 AM Posted By: sweetpea Reply to:Dathon Thanks for the thoughts. I just moved into this ward and debated on what to do. I could just stay inactive. My old ward I could have done anything and they would have been happy. My bishop was a great and understanding man and compassionate to all. I could have had a sincere one on one talk with him and he would have done his best to fit me in. I did have to move though and I am not sure what this ward holds for me. I was thinking I would attend a few times and get a feel for it all before I make any committments. I do have kids and have been trying to be careful not to confuse them too. I don’t want to start attending again, and then stop, my oldest would just freak! She respected my decision last time, but I know she wants to attend Young womens. I guess I am rather afraid I will get a dunce for a bishop and a really stuck up ward that only sees things one way – but I will only know if I try right? It is such a shame there isn’t more room for all levels in the church. Thanks for your time, it helps to bounce it all out there. =sweetpea |
| Date Posted: 07/01/2001 9:19 PM Posted By: LDSman Rank: Server & HostReply to:sweetpea Hi. Welcome. I’m sure your chosen path has been chosen by others. I know that it is difficult. I read “Alumnus’” thread about the same kind of dilemma. At NOM we encourage those who choose to stay to visit here because you WILL want to vent at times. As Dathon said, it depends a lot on the culture of the new ward you find yourself in. Some bishops are open, loving, and genuinely caring. Others are Iron Rodder Zealots who would drag ailing members to church rather than to the hospital. My advice is to say nothing. Show up, participate to the depth you want to, and keep your private life and behavior private. If pressed, just admit to vague skepticism about certain things, but make no declarations and share no information. Best of luck. ————————- |
| Date Posted: 07/02/2001 10:21 AM Posted By: sweetpea Thank you for the welcome! I was thinking about this over the weekend and agree that the less said the better! I was also wondering what my purpose would be to go in light of my absolute disbelief,- and can only say it would be social, so, in that light, it would be best to feel it out quietly with my mouth shut – although they would know immediately I am inactive and not a zealot(my direct neighbors behind me are LDS and know my kids are out playing on sunday-news will spread)but if they are open to me and don’t attempt to snub us because of our “liberal” activities, then it might work out. If I notice a definate snubbing then we just won’t bother – I had forgotten how wards can vary because I was blessed with such a great ward prior to my leaving – I just got completely overwhelmed and did some soul searching – I am grateful for your site! Are there any mom members participating here that I might be able to bounce some ideas off? Maybe a NOMRS? =sweetpea |
| Date Posted: 07/03/2001 9:05 PM Posted By: Rod-Surly This is regarding your concerns about the required declarations of faith. About the only time you are required to answer such questions are when you are in a temple recommend interview. The instructions to the interviewer are essentially “Stick to the questions!” The questions themselves are, IMHO, constructed so as to allow the person being interviewed the widest latitude in answering simply “yes” or “no” to the questions in the context of their own beliefs. I believe the questions are phrased to allow the intellectuals in the church to answer the questions and still sleep at night. Some of the questions are simply about loyality. I sustain Gordon B. Hinkley as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and the only person on earth authorized to administer the keys of the priesthood. I understand the terms Prophet, Seer, and Revelator as ecclesiastical offices within the church. I recognize the prophet as the chief operating officer of the church. Supporting him is a matter of loyality. To some I am being totally dishonest. To me, I am doing what I need to do to keep peace in my marriage and retain some degree of sanity. I hope this is helpful in some way. |
| Date Posted: 07/03/2001 11:15 PM Posted By: sweetpea Well it helps, but doesnt make it any easier to do. Last time I was pulled into the bishops office I was asked about the prophet – my bishop was great and I paused and said, well, I do believe he is a man of God and is here to help us gain a closer relationship with Him – he smiled and said’good enough for me’ so I guess I passed. I am hoping I can evade the question like that again. If I can’t isn’t there a way I could say that I am just not sure – still trying to gain a testimony, but want to be here(church) in order to ensure I don’t lose that possibility? Can gain a testimony inactive – so I go, live like a liberal /closet coffee drinker take the kids – smile alot and be very pleasant and helpfull – pay as much tithing as I can afford and maybe they will just look the other way when they come over and see the bottle of wine on the counter(I will say I use it to cook with)I never wanted to go to the temple anyway. =sweetpea |
| Date Posted: 07/04/2001 9:09 AM Posted By: Rod-Surly Sweetpea, what a novel idea to just tell the truth 🙂 I think your response of “I’m just not sure” is as honest and humble as it gets. I admire your integrity. If I get brave enough, I’ll try it next time I’m in that situation. Thanks for the idea! – Rod Surly |
| Date Posted: 07/04/2001 12:36 PM Posted By: sweetpea I am banking on the concept that we all have varying degrees of faith and as long as I am ‘trying’ to gain a testimony then they wont be too hard on me – I know I’ll never have one of the actual truth and divineness of the gospel, but I am comfortable with my current beliefs and there is no reason to rock the boat – my testimony lies in the greatness of the organization and its people. The rest will just be me skirting the issues and walking on eggshells – I think they get more concerned when you are actively questioning and rebelling. =sweetpea |
| Date Posted: 07/11/2001 11:39 AM Posted By: gracie Rank: Ms. UnderstoodReply to : sweetpea
Sweetpea, they will make you feel very welcome. In my experience, they adore people who are trying to work it out. It’s their job to help you. As long as you feel that way, I think both you and your leadership people will have a good relationship. No one’s going to give you a really hard time about WoW issues unless you are abusing, and that doesn’t sound like you. If the Mormon church is the best place for you to figure this out, then go ahead. To me, it would be like trying to diet in a chocolate shop. I see it as a dysfunctional organization that hurts me, whether it means to or not. I would not feel I could move on and learn about my true beliefs while being bombarded with their untruths. |
| Date Posted: 07/11/2001 8:09 PM Posted By: sweetpea1 Reply to : gracie Hi gracie. I would not try to convince you that the church has good attributes, but I was wondering if you have had the chance to visit other church’s and have found any appealing. I visited and almost converted to Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, and several non-denominational churches. The only one I even found came close to liking was the Lutheran. I found the non=denominational members to be very self righteous and pushy. I found the Catholic so full of man-made ritual (which doesn’t bother me too much – its all man-made) but got tired of sitting/standing/sitting/standing I have little kids and I get tired and just want to relax! Anyway, my point is, if I could find another church that I felt comfortable in, one that I related to, and respected, I would switch in a heartbeat. I dont think the LDS is perfect – I think it has alot of manmade pushy and selfrighteous attributes, but I am used to them and can recognize the crap easier. The main reason I didnt stick with the Lutherans is because in my area, they just dont have alot of young families that are Lutheran. If I am going to go, I want childrens programs. All in all, I find the LDs programs for the youth to be the best, as long as I keep it all in perspective. ————————- |
| Date Posted: 07/11/2001 8:35 PM Posted By: John* . Message edited by: John* on 07/13/2001 21:36:24 |
| Date Posted: 07/11/2001 8:49 PM Posted By: gracie Rank: Ms. UnderstoodReply to : sweetpea1 Hey Sweetpea! Yes, over the years I have tried United Methodist (which in this area is HUGE and has tons of youth and children’s activities), Unitarian Universalist, Catholic, Baptist and Greek Orthodox, and one rockin’ black revival church that was wonderful. I’m with you with the sitting and standing. Those eastern orthodox churches are usually just standing. I was very pregnant when we tried that one and I about fainted. I also agree that I don’t like the contemporary music, though I don’t see anything wrong with it. Just not my speed. Some of the larger churches offer both traditional and contemporary services. I think I’ve felt most comfortable at the Methodist church. But I am by no means ready to choose that one. I feel that lots of shopping around is in order. I attended a christening there and it was lovely. Just like LDS blessings, it took place near the beginning of a regular service, and it was not a huge deal. I loved it because both the parents got up and participated, rather than the mother handing the baby over to a circle of men. I think I need a really large congregation because it will afford lots of variety in people and age groups. I really like having senior citizens mixed in with singles and families. This is my thinking on this. I tell this to my hubby all the time. Don’t look to replace the Mormon church. It can’t be done. Just try to find a place where you are comfortable and you like the sort of people that attend and that will become you and your children’s friends. You mentioned you almost converted to Lutheranism. I am not looking to convert to anything. I am shopping for a congregation. Much different approach. Other churches are not in the same category as Mormonism. Mormons think they have all the answers, that they’re the one true church. If you buy that idea, that there’s only one truth, your options will be limited. I don’t buy it and I sense neither do you. I can’t see how one can find contentment in Mormonism without subscribing to the belief that they are IT. If you do Mormonism halfway, you’ll always be a lower tier member, pushed to the sidelines and given lots of crummy callings. You may also find yourself feeling terribly inadequate, as you have never had the sense of surety that so many of them profess. Again, best wishes in your search. If you do go back this week, or any week, I’d love to hear about your observations, etc. I won’t think ill of you or anything if that’s the road you take. You’re a convert, right? I think you said you were in only six months. Please tell me if I am remembering wrong, but if that is the case, it may take you a while before you put this issue to rest. I hope I can be of some help to you while both of us try to figure this out. BTW, I was born and raised Mormon. So I have a different point of view. |
| Date Posted: 07/11/2001 11:47 PM Posted By: sweetpea1 Reply to : gracie Hi gracie! Yes, I am a convert, but have been in since my teens – I am 37. I have only been *out* about a year now. I can’t believe this year passed so quickly, but I just walked out and never returned. AT first I was just sick, having a nervous breakdown, making excuses so I didn’t have to attend and face my callings, but as the weeks passed, they got very concerned and I had to face the music. I told my bishop my problem and actually wrote him a very nice letter, telling him I needed to step back. I was discharged from my calling(sunbeam teacher) and left alone except for an occasional call from my home teacher that was very guarded about meeting with me – all in all they respected my space – I spent alot of time on the Honest and Intellectual inquiry site/Mormonism and Theology site in order to sort out my thoughts. I am fully aware of what to expect when I return. I understand I might not be considered top notch, and only worry for my kids. My oldest loved the church, my others were happy but too young to really think too much either way – of course they were happy when I didn’t go – got to sleep in on sunday! As for Lutheranism, I attended several sundays and they wanted me to put my daughter through communion – but we would have to take classes and convert – again, immersing ourselves into a doctrine. I guess I am at a point where I really dont need any church in order to get and teach my children about spirituality, but only am seeking the social aspects and organization of it all. I know I don’t need any church in order to understand my feelings toward God, and I certainly don’t feel guilty about not following precisely any teaching. I only want the interaction with the members and find the LDS to be the most compatable. However that black religious revival church sounds great! ————————- |
| Date Posted: 07/12/2001 12:00 AM Posted By: gracie Rank: Ms. UnderstoodHey Sweetpea, I’ve got insomnia again and it’s way past midnight here. I’m about to go try again in a minute though. I’m 40, so we’re about the same age. That’s interesting you joined in your teens. I think I remember your saying you’d never been to the temple, so did you marry a nonmo? Are you divorced now? I can’t remember your mentioning a husband. Not trying to be nosy; just offering that if you haven’t had to deal with the temple then maybe that explains how you can look at mormonism as if it’s just another denomination. Yeah, I love those traditional black gospel churches. Such a sincere and loving and enthusiastic bunch. But I felt so WHITE as in–dull and lacking soul! Love that music. goodnight Message edited by: gracie on 07/11/2001 22:02:45 |
| Date Posted: 07/12/2001 1:01 AM Posted By: sweetpea1 Reply to : gracie Yes, I married a nevermo! I only went to the temple to do baptisms for the dead. I would periodically get close though – my bishop encouraging me, but would purposely break the word of wisdom in order to not go. Because my husband was not a member, it was a sore subject for me – whenever they brought up the eternal family stuff, I would start crying(which was often!)I never wanted to attend the temple unless he was a member and I even contemplated leaving him in order to be able to go through myself – not that the bishop encouraged that, only emotionally I feared he would never convert and I couldnt handle it. Right before I left they were putting the pressure on me again to get myself ready for the temple, I was a full tithe payer – sunbeam teacher- but would confess to having trouble with coffee. Whenever I needed to take a step back, I would resort to drinking the stuff – even one cup – and I would confess to my bishop that I had one cup of coffee in the last month! He couldn’t give me a reccomend!! I read as many books as I could about the temple(all church approved) and never fully understood it – was intimidated and I never felt ready so I sabatoged my chances each time. I am glad I actually never went through – I dont intend to be able to go through this time either! ————————- |
| Date Posted: 07/12/2001 8:58 AM Posted By: gracie Rank: Ms. UnderstoodReply to : sweetpea1
Sweetpea, She worked so hard to get there that I think she must have a blind spot for how bizarre it is. Now she goes at least once a month and usually stays for two to three sessions. It upsets me that she wastes her time and energy this way. I’d rather she came and stayed with me for the day (I live in the same vicinity as the temple–three or so hours from her home). Often I will call up their house and my dad will answer and say “Mom’s up there where you are.” And I had no idea she was even in the area. I don’t understand how it is more important to her to attend that ridiculous ceremony than to visit her grandchildren. About paying tithing, which you mentioned somewhere else. Why do you pay partial tithing? Believe me, I am not criticizing you. I just want to understand. Tithing is such a strict thing. I can only understand paying it if you wholeheartedly want to support the church and you’re trying to get a temple recommend. Why drink coffee to keep out of the temple? It’s much cheaper to stop paying tithing! And sooner or later you’re going to get a bishop who won’t deny you a recommend just because you have an occasional cup! That happened to me, I had an occasional something-else-that-I-won’t-mention, and he thought that was just fine and sent me off to be endowed. It might be a good thing for you to go, anyway. Maybe it will make some sense to you. It never did to me. In my case, going to the temple was my ticket out for good, though it took me a looooong time to figure it out. Best wishes, |
| Date Posted: 07/12/2001 9:30 AM Posted By: sweetpea1 Reply to : gracie Hi gracie! I paid my full tithing — because at the time I was a full believer, only scared and not ready for the temple. I wouldn’t consider not paying my tithing because it was more a regular thing whereas breaking the word of wisdom was more infrequent and only done periodically. If I go back, I don’t expect that I will pay a full tithing, but perhaps a partial – After I walked out and did some internet searches on the temple, I was surprised about what goes on in there. I was pretty bummed that people would want to go through that ceremony. MY TBM sister-n-law goes all the time to the Mt. Tipanogos (sp?) temple. I asked her what she gained from it, what it meant for her, just to see her reaction. She couldn’t answer me right away and took several days to answer me, then even attended a session to make sure she said the most spiritual thing to me. She said, it brought her peace and comfort and was the only place on earth she could find that quiet and peace. I knew immediately what she meant! She has 4 small kids, my brother works alot away from home. She holds several callings and is tired and depressed alot. My theory is that she gets out of the house away from the kids the callings etc and can reflect there. She did say the celestial room was the most important reward to attending and she will often spend as much time as she can just sitting and reflecting. I think she just hides out there! SHe said she would go through with her sister and often giggle at the whole process, but she excused it as just being with her sister made her giddy! I think if they allowed me in with all my current transgressions, then I would go. Hopefully I wouldn’t laugh. ————————- |
| Date Posted: 07/12/2001 11:19 AM Posted By: Anonymous gracieReply to : sweetpea1
Sweetpea, LOL! You’re so right about her reasons for going I think! It makes me think I might just like it too sometimes. My almost-three-year-old is driving me batty today… She is painting a very accurate picture of why lots of people enjoy it there. I always found the celestial room a great relief because that bizarre ceremony was over. It IS a reward for enduring! But in busier temples they discourage you from hanging out too long. I also loved sitting there in the whispering quiet. I spent a lot of time there trying to make sense of it all. To no avail! Are you considering going? What are your transgressions, apart from coffee, if you don’t mind sharing? I think they would absolutely let you if you were determined to go, unless you were an adulterer. You’d have to lie about supporting the prophet, etc., but I am sure that’s a common practice. As long as your motives are pure, i.e., you are seeking enlightenment, I see no ethical problem in lying about that. I want to encourage you to pursue this next step, no matter what it is, even though I honestly believe the temple is a joke and the whole process is a method for extracting large sums of money from the members. I need to be up front with you about my beliefs. But I do think it’s important for you to follow your own path and make up your own mind. I still don’t get the partial tithing. Do you just feel a need to contribute because you like the organization? Why not put the $ in fast offerings or bring lots of treats to ward parties? Tithing money does not go to your home ward and is used for top churchmen’s salaries and buildings, mostly. To me the only reasons to pay is for admission to the temple. Do you believe you get blessings for paying it? Do tell. I’m enjoying this discussion. Hope you don’t mind sharing. Gracie |
| Date Posted: 07/12/2001 11:43 AM Posted By: gracie Rank: Ms. Understood Sorry, forgot to log in–that really was me! |
| Date Posted: 07/12/2001 5:20 PM Posted By: sweetpea1 Reply to : gracie Well, regarding the tithing, at the time, I was doing it because it was commanded and I respected that. I guess Ihadn’t thought too much my motives for doing it this time, other than I do understand it is an organization with bills to pay to sustain our attending the services! I guess I could consider just doing offerings and such – my bishop had brought this up at a settlement once – indicated that if I couldn’t pay tithing he would be happy to accept offerings and then gave all the merits of doing so. I am not sure I could stomach the ceremony all though my curiosity abounds! After what I read on the internet, I think I would laugh too hard! But who knows, when I get back and get going, I will evaluate my intentions then. Good luck with that 3 year old! Do you have other children? Mine are all having birthdays this weekend – july 13,15,and 16. I will then have a 5 year old, 9 year old, and 12 year old – the nine year old was supposed to be baptised last year, but I went AWOL right before her birthday! I will consider her baptism after we have been active for awhile. ————————- |
| Date Posted: 07/14/2001 12:02 PM Posted By: gracie Rank: Ms. UnderstoodReply to : sweetpea1 Dear Sweetpea, I am a late bloomer in every sense of the word. I married at 30 and became a first time mother at 37. My oldest is 33 months and the second is 8 months. I am sleepy all the time. Over at exmobb I was told that my considering to have a third child at my advanced age was ‘creepy.’ Apparently they think I’m old enough to be a grandmother. Do you post there? I often feel I am in a home for dysfunctional kindergarten dropouts. How in the world did you manage to have all your kids in the same month? Are you going to church tomorrow? I was thinking about your oldest daughter and how upset she would be if you stopped again. How about discussing it with her? Cheers. Gracie |
| Date Posted: 07/14/2001 9:27 PM Posted By: sweetpea1 Reply to : gracie Talk about creepy, not only are all my kids born in July, but their birthdays are within days of each other! July 13, 15, 16. The July 13th baby would have been the 14th, but we induced! And the oldest is July 16, the middle July 15 and the youngest July 13 all girls and all looked exactly alike at birth – it is hard to tell which is which in baby pictures! Well tomarro is the big day! I had only planned on staying for sacrament, but somehow I know I will stay longer! I talked to the missionaries today and they will be waiting for me. It was good practice to discuss my new activity without disclosing too much knowledge – I just tell them I had a nervous breakdown/personal problems and needed to withdraw for a time – I moved recently so I am taking this opportunity to start fresh. They are fine – I also tell them all up front that although I love the church, my testimony wavers and I have significant word of wisdom problems, but my main focus is the kids and making sure they are brought. I tell them that since I am returning, I cannot afford to get overwelmed again, that depression is easy for me and that I will speak with the bishop about not giving me a calling or pressuring me to much too soon. They fully understand and am glad I am making an effort – like I told my best TBM girlfriend who is moving soon – better to start off as the heathen and slowly improve than to look like you are degenerating! She has had a difficult time with stress too, and I tell her when she moves to discuss how you are barely able to hang on to a testimony – then if you improve they will be joyful for you – but no one will put the pressure on right away! I am actually very excited about going! I think I will handle this very well, and be able to enjoy the church and what it has to offer instead of worrying about what I am NOT doing right! Teeh ehhhe!! Yes, I post on the other boards, but I am going to keep my name confidential (or possibly send you a private note – don’t want any one to really know who I am) pretty much because I was so adamant about not returning EVER and Ithink people would think I was lacking in integrity by selling out and returning – My 12 year old knows why I left – she knows why I am going back – she is fully aware of all of my decisions and I am leaving it up to her to decide whether the church offers her any benefits. My soon to be 9 year old was never baptised – I freaked the same month (a year ago) that she was scheduled to have her baptism) I told the missionaries today that I felt very strongly that she was old enough to make her own decision and that upon returning if she felt she wanted to be she would tell me – we would go from there. If she chooses not to, I will not pressure her. Same with my 5 year old, when the time comes and I will inform them of all my findings – nothing hidden. Well, take care of your little ones – I figure if you are able to handle the exhaustion that comes from having babies – it doesn’t matter what age you are! Its a personal choice! ————————- |